Comments on: Parsimony and Why Its Important http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/blog/72/canine-behavior/parsimony-and-why-its-important/ Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists Speak! Fri, 03 Sep 2010 18:37:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Suz and Dan http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/blog/72/canine-behavior/parsimony-and-why-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-20 Suz and Dan Tue, 19 Jan 2010 22:41:44 +0000 http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/blog/?p=72#comment-20 <p>Thanks for your comment Didi. As we said in the original post, the point of the Unsolved Mysteries story was that the contention from the TV folks was that the dog knew the person was drowning and he set out to purposely rescue him. As you point out - that probably wasn't the case.  In the end the person was rescued which is a good thing.</p> <p>One of the reasons we think the idea of parsimony is important, because it's easy to anthropomorphise our pets' behaviors - believe they are acting "guilty" when we come home and find the trash overturned for example, when in reality they (dogs at least) are showing submissive behaviors.  So doing our best to understand the "why" of behaviors will allow us to modify them, should that be our intent.</p> Thanks for your comment Didi. As we said in the original post, the point of the Unsolved Mysteries story was that the contention from the TV folks was that the dog knew the person was drowning and he set out to purposely rescue him. As you point out – that probably wasn't the case.  In the end the person was rescued which is a good thing.

One of the reasons we think the idea of parsimony is important, because it's easy to anthropomorphise our pets' behaviors – believe they are acting "guilty" when we come home and find the trash overturned for example, when in reality they (dogs at least) are showing submissive behaviors.  So doing our best to understand the "why" of behaviors will allow us to modify them, should that be our intent.

]]> By: Didi http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/blog/72/canine-behavior/parsimony-and-why-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-19 Didi Tue, 19 Jan 2010 14:51:43 +0000 http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/blog/?p=72#comment-19 Parsimony is the key. We don't know what the dog thought but it's very unlikely that any companion dog would mistake any person for an inanimate object, even from a distance. It's also possible that the dog did not understand the whole situation....neither would a person happening upon the scene. But a companion animal who swims would very likely approach a person in the water whether the person was happily splashing or struggling. Dogs, as social/pack animals are very likely to note the difference from a distance between play and struggle but either way a socialized dog would probably investigate. Once close enough, a large swimming dog would easily serve as a flotation device. Doesn't change a thing. The dog did save a person even if it wasn't his big plan all along.  Parsimony is the key. We don't know what the dog thought but it's very unlikely that any companion dog would mistake any person for an inanimate object, even from a distance. It's also possible that the dog did not understand the whole situation….neither would a person happening upon the scene. But a companion animal who swims would very likely approach a person in the water whether the person was happily splashing or struggling. Dogs, as social/pack animals are very likely to note the difference from a distance between play and struggle but either way a socialized dog would probably investigate. Once close enough, a large swimming dog would easily serve as a flotation device. Doesn't change a thing. The dog did save a person even if it wasn't his big plan all along. 

]]> By: Suz and Dan http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/blog/72/canine-behavior/parsimony-and-why-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-16 Suz and Dan Sun, 17 Jan 2010 22:26:44 +0000 http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/blog/?p=72#comment-16 <p>HI Tracy - thanks for offering an alternative opinion.  While your interpretation of why the Newfie did what he did is certainly possible, we still maintain that our version is the most parsimonious.  "Instinct" is in fact a complex term - even behaviorists use it to mean different things, we have no idea about how it actually works (e.g. what information about behavior is encoded in the genes), etc., etc.   Just giving something a name by itself isn't an explanation. </p> <p>However, a very basic principle is that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and this dog had much more experience retrieving logs than he did rescuing people.  So, in our view, he was doing what he'd already done many times before.  It's certainly possible that the victim's behavior - waving arms, etc. - made him more a subject of attention for the dog.  So it's possible - even probable -  that more than one factor contributed to the dog's motivation.</p> <p>Thanks for your comment!</p> <p>Suzanne and Dan</p> HI Tracy – thanks for offering an alternative opinion.  While your interpretation of why the Newfie did what he did is certainly possible, we still maintain that our version is the most parsimonious.  "Instinct" is in fact a complex term – even behaviorists use it to mean different things, we have no idea about how it actually works (e.g. what information about behavior is encoded in the genes), etc., etc.   Just giving something a name by itself isn't an explanation. 

However, a very basic principle is that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, and this dog had much more experience retrieving logs than he did rescuing people.  So, in our view, he was doing what he'd already done many times before.  It's certainly possible that the victim's behavior – waving arms, etc. – made him more a subject of attention for the dog.  So it's possible – even probable –  that more than one factor contributed to the dog's motivation.

Thanks for your comment!

Suzanne and Dan

]]> By: Tracy http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/blog/72/canine-behavior/parsimony-and-why-its-important/comment-page-1/#comment-15 Tracy Sun, 17 Jan 2010 08:36:26 +0000 http://animalbehaviorassociates.com/blog/?p=72#comment-15 I totally agree with your analysis of the tug game and why it worked with the dog with the submissive urination problems.  However, in the case of the Newfoundland, I can't say that your floating log explanation is the simplest one.  One of the original jobs of the Newfoundland was water rescue.  They were selectively bred for these behavioral traits.  Of course different individuals will exhibit these instincts to different degrees.  I have been told by a friend who train her Newfie for water work that they are very sensitive to individuals in the water who are stressed.  For example two humans were placed in the water, during a training exercise, and the dog was supposed to save the one who yelled, "Help, dog, help!".  Many of the dogs would go to save the other "victim" if she was a person who was more stressed because she was rather afraid of the water (despite her life jacket).  I think that instinct is a simpler explanation than generalizing the behavior of retrieving large logs to people since we know that dogs are pretty poor at generalization. I totally agree with your analysis of the tug game and why it worked with the dog with the submissive urination problems. 
However, in the case of the Newfoundland, I can't say that your floating log explanation is the simplest one.  One of the original jobs of the Newfoundland was water rescue.  They were selectively bred for these behavioral traits.  Of course different individuals will exhibit these instincts to different degrees.  I have been told by a friend who train her Newfie for water work that they are very sensitive to individuals in the water who are stressed.  For example two humans were placed in the water, during a training exercise, and the dog was supposed to save the one who yelled, "Help, dog, help!".  Many of the dogs would go to save the other "victim" if she was a person who was more stressed because she was rather afraid of the water (despite her life jacket).  I think that instinct is a simpler explanation than generalizing the behavior of retrieving large logs to people since we know that dogs are pretty poor at generalization.

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